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Rob Heinbecker |
Split up | ||
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With America so polarized most of the time just what is it that keeps you guys so close together? Why hasn't the NorthEast or the South or Midwest or
'Left' Coast, just said, "Screw you guys, we're going off on our own!"
"The saddest part of a broken heart is not the ending so much as the start." (Leslie) Feist
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Hooray |
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Well, you know, some states tried that about 150 years ago. It didn't end well for them.
Really most Americans are pretty moderate. It's just that the partisan ones are the most vocal. They're also the ones who vote in the primaries which is why the truly moderate candidates don't make it to the general election as often. Just look at Joe Lieberman. The Democratic Party in Connecticut screwed him over in 2006 and nominated the more liberal Ned Lamont for his Senate seat instead. Lieberman then ran as an independant and won re-election in the general thanks to the more moderate voters. |
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andyjay |
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Well, you know, some states tried that about 150 years ago. It didn't end well for them.
Yeah, and nowadays we have ICBM's and other nifty things we didn't have in 1861... |
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Rob Heinbecker |
separation | ||
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But you know, I just don't see the rest of the US forcing its will upon a region that wants to split away in this modern era. Not that its likely to
happen.
"The saddest part of a broken heart is not the ending so much as the start." (Leslie) Feist
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ryogasgirl |
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I think the idea of seceding from the union went out with the idea of slavery. Neither one is likely to ever happen in the United States.
It's not simply that everyone in the south is a bible thumper or everyone in California is liberal. Those stereotypes don't apply to everyone. In order to secede from the United States, you would have to have a VAST majority of the residents of a state or group of states agreeing that it would be in their best interest to strike out on their own. To even get the idea on a ballot of some kind would be almost unfathomable. OF course, I'm sure there have been a few extremists over the years who have thought about it, but it's really really incredibly unlikely for even a large minority of the population of any one area to consider this course of action. |
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Rob Heinbecker |
seceed | ||
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Not even those surly jerks in Delaware?
"The saddest part of a broken heart is not the ending so much as the start." (Leslie) Feist
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GodaiMH |
If we're not careful, it could happen. | ||
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I agree that at this point it isn't a real possibility that there should be such a schism of the United States. At least, not quite yet. But I have heard
it mentioned that the Eastern U.S. and the Western U.S. and Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan would break away and join the Canadian provinces of Ontario and
the Eastern provinces and British Columbia while the South, the Western and Plains States, and the rest of the Midwest joined Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and
Alberta (while Quebec spun off to do it's own thing). I think it was fanciful thinking, but ideologically, I have heard it said that would be a match.
(I'm not sure about all of the Eastern provinces. I don't know much about New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, or Newfoundland, how their politics line up.
What would you think, Rob?)
I know there are Conservatives in the East and the Left Coasts, and there are Liberals in fly-over country, but like India and Pakistan, it would seem somehow to be maybe a more peaceful situation if this schism happened. (Irony intended, in case you didn't realize it.) People would eventually join the country they wanted, either that or put up with what they had. The big-government liberals could have it their way in their areas, and the state's-rights folks could run things the way they would like. The trouble would be that jealousy would not go away, and, like India and Pakistan, there likely would be bloodshed. I've often thought about what would happen if there should be a Constitutional Convention. That is the radical and yet Constitutional way to amend the Constitution. I don't know that we'd be capable in this day and age to have the equivalent of a 3/5ths compromise between the states. So literally, if there isn't a solution to judges ruling by judicial fiat, there will be a reaction. It's like an earthquake. The crust of the Earth only puts up with so much stress before a major correction happens. Judges ruling without listening to the people -- that is going to break our society down to a point where we're listening to the nuts on both sides rather than trying to reach a middle of the road solution. That's what I was saying earlier about the abortion debate. That's also what I could say about the gay marriage debate. I have a point of view, and other people may disagree. I'm fine with our disagreeing. But if we as people can work it out so that the majority of the people can have their way on the subject, while respecting the right of the minority to have their opinion, and maybe giving them some of what they wish for, that is the blessing of American democracy. And with judges, like in California, ruling against the people's wishes, that only angers the majority who feel that their voice does not count anymore. And that's when people start to hate. Hatred is the reaction in people when they are angry and the system is not listening to their views. And the casualty is the whole system. Everyone loses. So regardless of where you stand on abortion, or gay rights, or environmentalism, or any other issue, I urge everyone here to support the appointment of justices, not that are conservative or liberal, but who interpret the law, and rule based on the laws made by the people through their elected representatives. That way everyone can have his/her say, and every voice is heard. Then the debate can bring about the changes that most of the people support, and we can all respect each other in the end. That's going to be lost if we're not careful. We would not want a situation to develop where some disaffected soldiers would want to take matters into their own hands and have a coup. But that could happen here. If the government cannot convince the people that its policies are based upon the people's wishes, then the people may regard the government as illegitimate, and some may even support such an effort. I want to make it clear that I am not in support of such a coup. That would be a disaster. But I am just saying it could really happen in the U.S. if we don't stop run-away courts and run-away bureaucracies that rule against the people's wishes.
Regards,
GodaiMH MH = Means Married Happily.
(Image kindly edited by Hoshi Shouri. Thanks Hoshi!)
Last Edited By: GodaiMH
06/19/08 11:34 PM.
Edited 1 times.
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Rob Heinbecker |
politics | ||
I don't know much about New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, or Newfoundland, how their politics line up. What would you think, Rob?)The east coast flips fairly evenly between Liberal and Conservative with the odd NDP representative every once in a while. They would fit well with the presented scenario.
"The saddest part of a broken heart is not the ending so much as the start." (Leslie) Feist
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RanmaMoroboshi |
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GodaiMH wrote:This sort of thing did happen once before, GodaiMH. During the Great Depression of the 1930s, America's business leaders planned to do exactly that due to their frustration with FDR's New Deal policies. They even enlisted a general to lead the charge and set up a fascist state, but it ultimately failed when the general they chose turned around and reported what he had been told to the U.S. government. But I don't think that sort of thing will happen anytime soon now because Big Business works hand-in-hand with the government to screw the American taxpayers. To change the subject from this delicate topic, is it just me or does Barack Obama look more and more like the man who will win the election as the days pass. It seems like he can't get any negative press. So far the worst thing he seems to have done is say he's on a committee that he's not a member of. If there's any dirt for the GOP to find, it already seems to have been washed away. Given McCain's recent efforts to say Obama lacks the requisite foreign policy experience, he looks more and more like a man who has been politically outflanked in his own message. |
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Rob Heinbecker |
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I'm sure the dirt is there to throw. You just have to be very careful with your timing. With all the mudslinging that has gone on in US politics in the
past, a thought has come to my mind.
If one camp or another begins a campaign of blatant lies that succeeds in disturbing the voting base into not voting for the opposition and it is proven, then would the election have to be redone? For example, lets say two days before the vote, someone accuses Obama of raping a child. The purveyor has media legitimacy and throws it all away to tell this lie. This lie has a direct impact on Obama's fortunes and he loses the election. Once the lie is uncovered, what would happen to the winning party? Would they just say too bad. Sue us. Or would the election have to be redone? Are there any mechanisms in place to deal with such an event or is it so inconceivable a notion that nothing exists?
"The saddest part of a broken heart is not the ending so much as the start." (Leslie) Feist
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Hooray |
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No, it would not be re-done. For example, the whole "Obama is a Muslim" thing is a flat out lie being pushed around by Republicans on the internet.
Reasonable people know it's a lie. Yet it's being treated as something that could hurt Obama in the election. There's no do-over even if people
vote on the basis of something that is untrue or unfair.
If the winning party, however, was exposed to have engaged in illegal or at least highly unethical campaign practices, you can bet it would affect the next election. A President who was elected under those circumstances would most likely be a one-term President. Just look at how the 2000 election left a bad taste in peoples' mouths. George W. Bush would have been a lame, unpopular one-term President if not for the September 11 attacks. Of course these days a particular campaign does not have to dirty their hands anyway. They can just have some other group like the swiftboaters or moveon.org do it for them. Then the candidates can denounce the dirty tactics publicly while privately winking and giving a thumbs up to their supporters. |
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GodaiMH |
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Rob Heinbecker wrote:
I agree with Hooray that it would not be redone. 8 years ago, a day or two before the election, there was a spurious report about Bush having had a drunk driving ticket. Even though Bush's previous drinking had been aired and re-aired, and the campaign had come clean about that over and over again, the press reported Bush having had a drunk driving arrest in his past as if it was a new story, and then interviewed some idiots who didn't know of Bush's previous (and given-up) drinking who bemoaned how worried they were. This was on a Saturday or something like that. The story was timed so that Ross Perot's endorsement of George W. Bush over Al Gore Jr. on Larry King was completely drowned out and no one ever heard about that. Bush had been about 5 points up on Gore in the Battleground Poll or something like that. And he nearly lost the election. It was clear the report (as in the newsworthiness of it) had completely no merit, and that the press had been sitting on that story just to time it just right. It nearly worked. If it had worked, we'd have had President Gore and there's little anyone could have done about it. Hooray wrote: If the winning party, however, was exposed to have engaged in illegal or at least highly unethical campaign practices, you can bet it would affect the next election. A President who was elected under those circumstances would most likely be a one-term President. Just look at how the 2000 election left a bad taste in peoples' mouths. George W. Bush would have been a lame, unpopular one-term President if not for the September 11 attacks.As I said above, the liberal press, in the tank for Gore, used this tactic in 2000 in just the right time to nearly hand Gore the election. All the doubt about Bush being legitimately elected in 2000 can have stemmed from a number of press tricks. Since Gore wasn't elected in 2000, I can't say whether his presidency would have been undermined, but Bush's Presidency nearly was undermined, or at least at the beginning, on account of the highly unethical (but all's-fair-in-love-and-war) tactics used by the Democrats and their willing patsies in the press in 2000. So that just goes to show that in this highly polarized country, half the people will believe the thing that the press says just because it goes with what they want to hear. And about half would disbelieve it just because it disagrees with what they want to hear. And the fair-minded, middle-of-the-road, I-want-to-know-the-facts type of people really are too few to matter. Maybe in a contest of a percentage or two, those fair-minded folks will be swayed against the side that uses dirty tactics. I think perhaps in 2000, those fair-minded folks, when they looked at the facts, were convinced that George Bush won the election and was legitimately our President. Hooray continued: Of course these days a particular campaign does not have to dirty their hands anyway. They can just have some other group like the swiftboaters or moveon.org do it for them. Then the candidates can denounce the dirty tactics publicly while privately winking and giving a thumbs up to their supporters.Too true, too true. And here McCain has no one to blame but himself. His own McCain-Feingold set the stage for this situation. Money is going to find it's mark in politics, because it is the lifeblood of politics. All you do when you put up obstacles is make the system more corrupt and convoluted. Let everyone give as much as they want to directly to whoever they want to and let the chips fall as they may. Only two regulations: 1) No third parties, PACs, or any other organization can run any add, attack or support or otherwise -- the campaigns themselves can run what they want and 2) Full disclosure. Everyone has to report who they are supporting. If George Soros wants to spend a billion dollars getting Obama elected, more power to him. But he has to let it be known he's fully in the tank for Obama, and people can judge whether Obama will owe Mr. Soros any favors when he's elected. But we have the politicians wet-dream in the current system. So it won't ever be changed, except for the worse. And this is what accounts for the eventual disconnect between the political process and the people. I wonder how long it will take before people on both sides to awaken to the fact that they are being cynically used by powerful influential monied interests on both sides. Both Democratic and Republican Parties look fascistic to me, and their candidates are the lamest ever. Nothing to get excited about on either side. But that's how the big party bosses and the people with money wanted it. And the press is still in the tank for Obama, so I'm sure he'll glide to the Presidency, unless the McCain folks and a renegade press reporter has a doozy of a story to come out just a couple days before the general election. But the cynical public will have to be convinced of it's legitimacy or it will fall flat. I think I'll one more time make the bid that neither party deserves our support in this election. Whether it was Republicans or Democratics that were on top right now, I'd have to say that the party process is controlled by cynical forces. Really they are two sides of the same team that has owned this country for decades, and if the people want REAL change, they need to kick the bums out. I think I plan on voting for a third party for President, and against every incumbent politician this year and every year I can. If more people did that they could rest control of the process back from the parties and the entrenched interests. The politicians would have to realize that unless they rise above it all and become statesmen, they are not worthy of our support. Elected office is service to the people of this great land, not the debt to the monied interests. There are real issues that affect our country. But the process, the interests and the bureaucracy stands in the way of any of the problems being solved. Only the people have the power to overthrow this regime. We have a choice as free people. We can drink the Koolaid the press and the media gives us and react to whatever they say, or we can think for ourselves, reach out to each other, and solve real issues the good old fashioned way, through the democratic/republican (small d/small r) process. I just wish Jesse-the-Mind Ventura were running, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat. He spoke his mind, didn't bullsh1t about religion or being religious, or any other PC thing, and governed in the way he thought was right. Sure I didn't agree with everything he did or said, but that's the wonder of it. He was a man in this secular society I'd trust to run things. If I disagreed, I'd stand up and disagree and yet still support him. Maybe if people did what I'm advocating, we could get a Jesse-the-Mind Ventura as our President. A dream? Most definitely.
Regards,
GodaiMH MH = Means Married Happily.
(Image kindly edited by Hoshi Shouri. Thanks Hoshi!) |
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Alindawyl |
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The only way to effect real change is to pass a term limit amendment for Congress. Why it's perfectly acceptable to have a term limit for the executive
branch but not for the legislative branch is beyond me. Five two-year terms in the House and two six-year terms in the Senate for lifetime service sounds
acceptable to me. And even that is possibly too long. Couple that with the full disclosure/no limit change to campaign financing that GodaiHM mentioned and
you've got a winning recipe for REAL change.
Ted Kennedy believes his Senate seat should go to his wife if he dies in office. Is the Senate now a House of Lords, where the seats are "owned" by the occupants to be passed on as they see fit? That's the kind of haughty attitude you get when someone holds public office for so long. Henry B. Gonzales held the same Congressional seat in my state for THIRTY-EIGHT years, and when he finally resigned in 1998 the seat was won by... his son. Who has held it for a full decade now. It's not just Democrats. Strom Thurmond held his Senate seat for almost fifty years. John McCain has held his Senate seat for "only" twenty-two years. If re-elected this year, Lamar Smith will have held his House seat for three decades. I live in Smith's district, and have been to some of his rallies. The man has the same attitude of entitlement as Kennedy or Gonzales. The Democrats in Congress have been spineless toads since the 2006 election, which they only won because the Republicans had spent the past several years being spineless toads themselves. Despite all their campaign rhetoric about how they were going to stand up to Bush and change the course of the final two years of his presidency, they've done nothing but look out for their own interests. Now that he's got the nomination wrapped up, Obama has spent the past month or more flip-flopping on a good number of his promises during the primaries. McCain has been standing around saying a whole heck of a lot of nothing since securing the Republican nomination, and shows no indication that that will change in the future. So who knows what the hell will happen. Back in December everyone KNEW that Hillary Clinton would be the Democrat nominee and Rudolph Guiliani would be the Republican nominee. There are over three months to go before the election this year. Anything can happen in that time. And with the fools we've got both running for office and voting for said candidates, at this point your guess is as good as mine. |
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RanmaMoroboshi |
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I must disagree with you about the Democrats having been "spineless toads" since the 2006 election. It only looks that way because Bush decided to
actually use his veto power for the first time in his life, and the slim majority the Democrats had wasn't sufficient to override Bush's vetoes because
key members of the GOP did not join in for the override vote.
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Alindawyl |
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Back in 1994 conditions were right for Republicans to win, just like they were in 2006 for Democrats. Both parties took control of Congress away from a
party that also had the presidency, both did it during a midterm election, and both did it mainly based on negative opinions toward the president and Congress
rather than positive views of their own party. And then both parties had to deal with presidential vetoes afterwards.
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GodaiMH |
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Short term thinking for the lose. It cost Republicans control of Congress in 2006 and could very well cost Democrats their chance at the White House this year.I agree that the Democrats didn't run on anything in 2006 and have done not much since. It seems Democrats should have a golden opportunity to push an agenda against a Bush Administration wounded by American's war-fatigue. The problem is they have no real agenda, except, perhaps, paying a few political favors to their primary interest groups. Polls indicate that while Bush's approval rating is in the 30s, Congress's approval rating is in the single digits. This situation where the Democrats are sitting on their potential rather than pushing an actual agenda could spell disaster from Obama in 2008. If Democrats could articulate a clear agenda, I can only imagine that they could ensure a victory for Obama. Sure, they may raise Republican opposition, but they would galvanize their own supporters. Still, the Democrats may eek out a victory in 2008 simply because the Republicans don't have an agenda either. It's just an awful state of affairs. Both parties are showing themselves only interested in power and money rather than the good of the American people.
Regards,
GodaiMH MH = Means Married Happily.
(Image kindly edited by Hoshi Shouri. Thanks Hoshi!) |
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Alindawyl |
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Regardless of how the presidential race turns out, Democrats will likely hold on to both the House and Senate. A low approval rating for Congress in a general
sense doesn't translate into a low approval rating for your own representative. After all, Republicans held on to Congress for over a decade despite not
having much of an agenda after 1998.
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andyjay |
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I completely agree with you about term limits, Alin. Politicians really do seem to develop a "House of Lords" mentality if they hold their seat for
too long. I mentioned earlier in this column about the police chief of my Aunt Mary's hometown, how he'd been running a slush fund for over 30 years.
She helped uncover it, and I think he was forced to resign. In part of her investigation, she saw that the guy and one of his chief assistants had actually
hidden their initials in the police department's logo, sort of like that one caricature artist hides his daughter Nina's name in his drawings. Talk
about arrogance!
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herbkir |
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I'll be voting for Obama in November. While he may not be the best candidate to me (that was Hillary but she lost), he represents a change from what
we've had. It means an entirely new cabinet, new appointees on federal agencies as vacancies occur, a changing of the cliques. What we had under Dubya
hasn't been working at home or abroad. I can't be certain that Obama's crew will do better, but they can hardly do worse. A president's big
strength is his advisers, and Obama as a candidate has proven adept at surrounding himself with capable people who get the job done, on time and on budget. I
don't expect any different when he's President.
I don't see McCain offering anything other than more of Dubya. He'll doggedly pursue the same sort of policies that didn't work under Bush and still won't work under McCain. And let's face it, McCain's age works against him. He would be the oldest man ever inaugurated as President. They say the presidency ages a man in dog years (7:1), not human years. Can McCain stand up under the stress of the modern presidency? I doubt it. As to Obama's supposed inexperience in foreign policy, I expect he will have a big advantage there because of his race. The majority of the world is non-white. It will provide the world an example of the superiority of the American Way if we can put a black man into the highest office in the land. (Sure, we're all racist pigs. That's why we voted in a black man as our President.) The sensible leaders in Africa, Asia, Middle East, South and Central America may be more likely to heed what Obama says simply because of his race. The lunatic fringes won't care who we elect, but the sensible leaders worldwide will care. As to term limits, I'm against them. We instituted them here in Michigan and the results have been dismal. Two terms and legislators are out. End result is legislators who spend their first term learning the ropes and their second term paying off favors so they can line up their next job. There's no institutional memory except for the lobbyists, who have gained vast influence over the always-inexperienced lawmakers simply because they are the only ones who know what's going on. Also, term limits have led to an almost pathological degree of partisanship about everything that comes before the legislature. No, when incumbents get too far out of touch with their constituents, the system already provides a device for limiting their terms. It's called an election. The reason so many of these people stay in for so long is that most of their constituents have no reason to vote against them. Or to bother voting at all. In other words, they are satisfied with things as they are. (^_*) |
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GodaiMH |
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I'm with you on term limits. I'm against term limits for Presidents, and would just as soon see a repeal of the 22nd Amendment. I doubt I'll
convince anyone. Even if a President were not limited to 2 terms, the immensity of the job, I am sure, would limit most to two terms, and if that wasn't
enough, the public's unrest at seeing anyone go longer than 2 terms would force most 2nd term Presidents to call it quits. But if the 22nd amendment WERE
repealed, at least the President could have the possibility of going longer than two terms, and that could strengthen the Presidency in the last half of the
2nd term. Lame Duck would only apply to a President after s/he's lost the election, and not before.
Regards,
GodaiMH MH = Means Married Happily.
(Image kindly edited by Hoshi Shouri. Thanks Hoshi!) |
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