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lum no fanboy wrote:

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...but then after reading diffrent seinen and josei tittles I decide MI was a little too imature to be josei so then I reasoned it must be sienen.

Seinen is written for men of college age; Josei for women of college age. Same age range. Not sure what you mean by MI being too immature for Josei. Big Comic Spirits is a comic (I think) monthly for college age men. MI is rather a mature title given the nature of the story. It relates a young man growing up in rather blunt (if rather humourous) terms. I would not say it is too immature to be Josei. Rather that it's protagonist is a young man, rather than a young woman, and it is a tale that is told in more of the masculine way. Men see the ideals of romance differently than women. The particulars of Maison Ikkoku relate more to the male way of looking at romance. From the Josei titles I have watched (the most important of which is Honey and Clover) the romance seems more open ended, and indefinite, and rather frustrating. Allot of characters can never get over their previous romantic hang ups. A likes B. B likes C. C likes D. D might turn around and notice that C likes him, but he's hung up on E. That type of thing. Maybe that's the way women in Japan see things, and want things related. I don't know. It's a good story, mind you, and I liked it, but I rather prefer the basic love triangles set in MI and the way in which they are finally figured out, rather than all this indefinite stuff in Honey and Clover. Now I haven't seen the end of Honey and Clover yet. I saw it was licensed and will rent it when it comes available, so please don't spoil anything for me about the end. But there does seem to be a basic difference between the type of story. MI, being my favorite anime/manga, relates more to how I see my own tale. And I am sure that that is the case more because of the style being Seinen, rather than Josei.

lum no fanboy wrote:

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Well...when I say immature I don't mean it's less adult than Josei titles are...but it's less...ummm...I don't know what adjective I'm looking for maybe.... "sophisticated?" While the relationships are portrayed in a very mature way, it still has a lot of wacky comedy, sex jokes, and (while I will admit not that much) fanservice.

I havent read much Josei so maybe I'm wrong, but I think even if seinin and josei readers are the same age group, josei readers seem a bit more mature (although, I think if some of the scenes played out just a little diffrently it could be Josei).

You know, I can grant you that Josei titles do have an air of sophistication. I'm just not sure that that amounts to being more (or less, for that matter) mature than Seinen titles. I think they are just different. It does seem as though Josei titles are more complicated in their depictions of relationships.

And back to the topic, as to why maybe MI doesn't have as huge of a female fan base, I wonder if there isn't a root in the fact that the title is so very Seinen, and relationships are dealt with in a very straight forward manner. Although Kyoko is a widow, and has many complications regarding her widowhood, and I would argue that MI has a degree of sophistication (read complication) concerning that fact, Godai's point of view is so very straight forward. It's either Kyoko or Kozue for Godai, and 98 1/2 times out of 100 it's Kyoko. That A likes B, B likes C, C likes D (etc.) thing just doesn't apply.

I'd be interested in a feminine viewpoint here to either debunk me or back me up. Do female readers really like all that complicated stuff in their romance reading/viewing? Especially the hang-ups where people can't get over the fact that they are unrequitedly in love with so-and-so?

Can I ask you, Hoshi, whether you ever watched Honey and Clover? That is the pre-eminent Josei series that I am acquainted with. If you HAVE seen it, would you concur with what I said about it? Do you think that complicated relationship scenerio I put forward would tend to define Josei works in general? I hear you when you say you're not a big fan of Shoujo, but wondered if Josei titles would be interesting to you.

I've never really thought about MI not having a large female fan base before, but I know that while reading it I did get exasperated at a lot of the misunderstandings that inevitably caused a lot of drama simply because Kyoko wouldn't listen to what Godai had to say. I really love Kyoko as a character because she's not just this demure widow that everyone has a thing for, she's got a lot of flaws, but I can see how her jealousy and tendency to overreact or act childishly might turn people off to her.

It bugged me that Godai was so wishy-washy about her and instead of manning up and breaking things off early on, just didn't ever call her or initiate things with her thinking maybe she'd drift off on her own. Same thing with Ibuki. Especially his letting her commandeering his room that time instead of just sending her home. I never felt like Kozue was really a serious contender against Kyoko for Godai's heart at any point, not in the way Mitaka was for Kyoko's at least.

I think that Godai may have gone for Kozue had he not been always tied to Kyoko. If he had met Kozue first, he may definitely fallen for her. I may hazard so much as to say that it was only the happenstance of Godai first falling in lust with Kyoko that had put the kabash on his relationship with Kozue. He was ever striving to be true to Kyoko in his heart (for all the good it did him, at least, early on). Kozue, for her part, I think, was in love with being in love, and not so much in Godai when she met him. But I think that became love for Godai over time. He was kind to her, and considerate of her feelings, after all.

So what I'm saying is that I think it was somewhat accidental that Godai actually fell in love with Kyoko, and that Kozue actually fell in love with Godai. It is Godai's tenacity to pursue a relationship with Kyoko that made for a relationship to actually happen with Kyoko. And it's Kozue's tenacity to pursue the ideal of love, that leads her to actually fall in love with Godai, and keep that relationship going so long.

Given the fact that Godai really did like Kozue, and thought she was cute, I don't so much fault him for keeping his options open with her. At least early on in their relationship. Although he does at times intend to break things off with Kozue, he doesn't, not so much for being a nice guy, but because he is not sure that will help him in his efforts to woo Kyoko. Realistically, until later in his life when he had graduated and was on the verge of finding work, it would not necessarily have done him any good. Until that happened, I don't think he even sees Kyoko as within his potential grasp. And realistically, she isn't. So I can forgive Godai that seeming undecisiveness.

(In just thinking about this, it may have happened, at some point, that Godai and Kyoko may have given in to some more romantic urges and thrown their lot in with each other. I think that would have ended disasterously. I think such was their passion for each other than once unleashed it would have taken over their life. I don't think Godai would have fully matured and Kyoko fully gotten over Soichiro in that case, and it may have fizzled as quickly as it had begun.)

Why Godai puts up with Ibuki Yagami is another matter. He is never in love with her, and only thinks she might be cute at whiles when she is asleep. I think he truly wishes some good for her. I think there he may actually be somewhat tied to her by feeling somewhat responsible for her. He yields to her demands out of concern for her in the end. But concern for her is ultimately what gives him the courage to do the right thing for her too.

On the other hand, to your point about Mitaka being serious contender for Kyoko's heart, I think that too was not very serious. I think from relatively early on, Kyoko found her heart stuck on Godai. That is, that part of her heart that was slowly becoming free of Soichiro. So by the time Godai breaks his leg, Kyoko's heart is strong for Godai, and likely a good while before that. Mitaka, only early on, had a chance with Kyoko's heart. But I think even then it was only a reaction to the notiong of her heart being stuck on Godai that she potentially could have considered giving it to Mitaka. That was part of the widow's heart self-defense mechanism. Now Mitaka, over time, had secured a hold on Kyoko's mind, to be sure. But Kyoko's heart was always looking for Godai to prove her mind wrong. I would argue that Mitaka had a similar chance with Kyoko as Kozue had with Godai. Both Mitaka and Kozue posed to their respective prospective lovers a reasonable alternative and a "safe" bet. That's why it took so long for either of them to be eliminated from the picture.

But your bringing up these points reminded me that my wife liked Kyoko, but could get seriously irked by her. But Godai, early on, really made my wife angry. It seems women do read MI differently from men and get different things out of it. I think men may come down harder on Godai on certain matters. I think Godai's stringing Kozue along, especially after the potential that Kyoko would go after Mitaka crumbled, was inexcuseable. Whereas women don't seem to mind getting out the "B" word when they think Kyoko's dea wrong. I think men tend to put Kyoko on a pedestal, but women are frustrated with Godai's shortcomings to no end, until he finally figures things out towards the end.

Yet, it also seems the women who read Maison Ikkoku, though, tend, from their conversation and from their own admitance, to be as comfortable or more comfortable relating to men as they are with women. Maybe that's an unfounded generalization. But I wonder if there may be something to that.

So did your wife ever say anything like "If I were Kyoko I would have chosen Mitaka instead?" Or did she warm up to Godai enough to think he was good enough for Kyoko?

My impression of my wife's view of Mitaka was always nonplussed. I don't know, but maybe it was something in his flashy teeth and style that said to her, "Full-of-himself jock womanizer." At least that's my take on my wife's point of view. Being rather a family man, I think it was my wife's influence that coloured my early view of Mitaka. I did not start to see good in him until after his gracious acceptance of Asuna as his bride. I think that was about the same time my wife also found some good in him. It wasn't until after I read the books a second time that I started giving Mitaka some credit along the way. I don't know yet if the wife would give him anymore credit previous to the point I had mentioned.

I'll pass this on to Otakuswife. Hopefully, she won't mind posting her own view of Mitaka first-hand.